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Hey everybody, it's me.

But here we are, as we have in the past, with a flashback episode. This time.

All the way back to february 2018 this was after the Co hosting the VD Clinic Pod with Vanessa.

Um so this was episode ten of that show and uh like I said it was February.

Fascism February episode on the Terry Gilliam Brazil and if you are under the Sinclair Lewis no. It was a cautionary tale about the rise of fascism in the United States after the election of a populist demagogue who rapidly dismantled.

Yeah, centers on a you know, stop me if you've heard this before, but uh charismatic politician winning the president.

Oftentimes as we've been dropping these older episodes, kind of illustrating how the more things change, the more they can stay the same.

Uh so like I said, it's February twenty eighteen.

would recognize that name. Maybe this is poignant because between July 2025 and Yesterday, ICE has killed at least eight people that we know about, not just Renee Good and Alex Pretti, the most recent CASUALTIES the idolization of fascistic fucks.

At least eight people that we know about.

In that span of time, who knows how many really there are? Those are just the ones that have been tracked.

So yeah, without further ado.

February Fascism Flashback Brazil and It Can't Happen Here 2018 with me, Vanessa, and Jeffrey X Martin. Talk to you soon.

Welcome to episode number 10 of the VD Clinic.

William, I'm your host, Vanessa. And now with me is my new co host, Daeron. Say hello, Daeron. Hello, everybody.

Yeah. I I'm excited today. I think we're gonna have some uh different things going on, even though you I mean you've been on here before, but um yeah. Do you know who hasn't been on here?

Exactly. Our guest for today

Jeffrey X Martin. Yay! We say that now. Hi!

Very pleased to be here. I you know, I I w I was happy to show up for Fascist February. So Yes. Yes, exactly.

Yes, this is Fascist February and uh today we're gonna be covering the movie Brazil and the book, uh the Sinclair Lewis book, It Can't Happen Here.

So um yeah. And in honor of fascists I have my snarling pit bull barking uh in the distance. That's only right. Seems only fitting. Yeah.

Yeah. Definitely. How is everybody? Daeron, how are you doing? I am doing really well. It's been a pretty chill day and um It's raining so I don't have to pretend like I wanna go outside right now.

Yeah. Raining here too in New York, so it's uh but yeah. I'm glad I got out of my I had I had to do my errand this morning and

Going to election training. Actually it was now that we're speaking about fascists, I gotta say I went to the Board of Elections this morning. They're debriefing'cause I won the pole site coordinators and

Wow. I have thoughts.

Oh, uh some some suspicious things in our uh democracy? No public, I guess. Technically uh actually it wasn't too bad, I have to say.

Um, considering I mean we're doing pretty good. Uh the borough of Brooklyn. We didn't have that I mean, we were pretty like numbers are down as far as like measures of

um, like invalid ballots and that kind of thing. So as far as when people say, those votes don't count, you know, oh, you're gonna do it this way, my vote's not gonna count. It's bullshit.

They're only a small number out of the like

hunt hundreds of thousands of ballots that were cast, i if not, you know, whatever million in Brooklyn alone, and only like twelve hundred were invalid. That's not bad.

I was led to believe that voter fraud was rampant in our country and people are bust in uh illegal immigrants from Mexico are bust in from Canada to Vermont. That's not true.

Uh yeah. Yeah. Not happening. The overground railroad getting people back into America?

And the thing about the votes, those twelve hundred votes that didn't count, the vast majority of those were because people weren't voting at the right place. Like they went to the wrong poll site.

And that's something simple. I heard that every Democratic vote was actually from a dead person.

True, also true. Paid for by George Soros. Yes. Allegedly. We'll throw that in a row.

Well, interesting that you should say that about the the um dead person voting when um I I this particular poll site that I work is one of the few Um Republican and uh districts in Brooklyn and in New York City entirely.

And um I worked there like during the two thousand sixteen election which was horrific with some of the stuff I said I heard. I almost had to have police eject someone Because this woman, this Orthodox Jewish woman, was getting crazy and screaming about me at me about voter fraud.

Yeah, and and I for this in this election we had poll watchers that came in and were there the int almost the entire day.

And I'd have almost had to have the cops throw them out'cause they were trying to interfere. Like it was in like talk to the voters are not supposed to interact, you know. So

And they but the the poll watchers kept saying, Well, you know those dead people are gonna come vote. I'm like, Are you fucking where they're gonna come in from? Or I heard about this one case.

This guy's he's he's a student from Montreal and he's gonna come to this district and go vote.

He announced it on Facebook.

Yeah, it was this crazy conspiracy type thing that I heard all day and I heard it during the first time I heard it really was the two thousand sixteen election.

But this this last time, because it was the poll watchers too, it was just banana some of the accusations that were being made.

You know, and you're like, Really? Do you you don't understand what like there are measures put in place so that doesn't happen. Like it And again, like I said

once, you know, like the affidavits and things like that that people the special ballots that people fill out, those go to headquarters. They get tossed if someone's even like a in this case Brooklyn

borough resident, you're just in the wrong vote wrong wrong pole site. You know? So you can't do that. Like there are all these different things. I don't know.

I had to hear about that this morning. Anyway, sorry. I derailed that a little bit. Hey, we'll pepper it in until we

all all about it. But you brought it back. You brought it back to how are you doing Jeffrey Martin? I'm fine. Yes.

Are you registered to vote in the proper district?

If you vote I am currently I'm not going to be able to do that.

that when I move here in a couple of months. But that is one of the first things on our list of things to do so that we can

not contribute to these voting booth urban legends that Vanessa's talking about. Yeah. People voting in the wrong district.

But I will be registering under the name Jimmy Hoffa. So Ah. Good. We'll see how that turns out. Maybe you can have uh uh Geraldo help you move.

Yeah, and you know what? He'd pick the room where there's nothing in it.

That'd be fine. Yeah. Then take a half nude selfie and post it to the Fox News op ed. Yes. Seventy eight years old, look at my guns.

Oh that that is a frightening image, but do you know what else is a frightening image? Well, what's a frightening image? Terry Gilliam's Brazil.

That is absolutely true.

I guess we should probably before we go any more weirdest segues I've ever heard in my life, Daeron. Holy bee.

Well, you know what? Why don't we uh take a break and then we'll come back and uh yeah, we'll talk about that frightening image.

Maybe you'll think of a better segue then. I I think yeah. I'll try. I'll fill out the right yeah. Okay. Okay. Fine.

At such a young age it left you traumatized with Cinema Sia.

Someone should have to watch this money.

No one should have.

Shot. Powerful goddess like Connie, Jammer Arm.

you should be I'm not Just because you're offended by something.

Little hit.

your brains warp.

Yeah. Okay, and we're back.

With Brazil. So tell us about Brazil, da uh, Daeron. I filled out the proper paperwork and uh requisitioned a better segue. Um Nineteen eighty five's Brazil by Terry Gilliam.

Wow, the the IMDB summary is pretty short and pretty sweet. It says a bureaucrat in a retro future world tries to correct an administrative error and becomes an enemy of the state.

Um as written and directed by Terry Gilliam.

of note should I say at the beginning of Actually I want to point out that Tom Stoppard was one of the co writers of the screenplay. And he wrote Rosencrantz and Gildenstern are dead.

Oh. And you totally see some of the same themes in this. Yeah. Yeah. That made my little like drama nerd girl art smile.

I had forgotten that when I reach until I rewap.

Um but yeah, it's anyway, go ahead. Well um you know, top build cast. I mean not in any sp particular order.

You see a lot of pythons, but where is the main guy? He's not even Jonathan Price. Jonathan Price is Sam Lowry.

Robert De Niro as Harry Tuttle, the most badass ninja H VAC man in the world. Um G yeah there's Ian Holm, Bob Hoskins, Michael Palin.

Uh who el I mean we Katherine Hellman. Katherine Hellman Mona was like it took me forever to realize that she was in other stuff and then I realized she's in almost every Terry Gilliam movie I've ever seen.

Or at least two. I don't want to say all of them. At least two.

Yeah, she was also on Time Bandits. Yep. Which I watched this week just cause I I've got a lot of his movies, so I watch Jabberwocky and Time Bandits and Fear and Loathing and Brazil.

I will hand it off to you, Vanessa, because I think this was your brainchild of an idea for a show, so you probably could have picked anything.

I had I had I don't know, last year or

After Forty Five was elected president. I can't say I've I've told you before, I can't say the title and the last name together. They j no. It's a it just doesn't make sense. I cannot do it.

And um I had heard different

people of my like m activist friends of mine, whatever things, bring up the book uh the Sinclair Lewis book that we're gonna talk about later. Um, it can't happen here.

And so when David and I started we were starting the podcast, I said, you know, at some point I really would like to do this book.

And we kinda just kinda kept pushing it along and couldn't figure out what movie to do with it because there are so many different

you know, options. But I think this actually ended up working out perfectly because of the whole aesthetic it has going back to the like nineteen forties um fascist era uh and then I mean it and with the some of the clothing just

subtle at you know, attention to detail and all the aesthetic, bringing back that imagery, the propaganda posters and everything totally goes with, you know, it's a it's just It I don't know, it has a it has a surpr it has a modern feel about it, you know, but it is very distinctly uh retro.

Yeah, and I I've always liked that about this movie. Um

And it I I'm a sucker for that kind of thing anyway. And I think that's I mean all the time. But I think that's part of why I like Terry Gilliam films.

I mean I have I haven't seen everything he's done. Um but he's done what twenty movies? 18 20 movies? Yeah. Something like that.

Um X do you know?

I think it's more like a six or seven. Is it? Really? Well, let's see. Um

Okay, time bandits. I know he did.

I don't think he directed Jabberwocky. I think that was Terry Jones. Uh credits on IMDB as director. Okay. So like Brazil, Fisher King, Baron Munchhausen. Mm hmm.

Meaning of life. Me Meaning of Life, which was a co direct with Terry Jones, Tideland

And I guess the man who killed Don Quixote is coming out eventually. Oh, co co directed Holy Grail with Terry Jones. Right, right, right.

Yeah. So yeah, he hasn't done as much as you know he should by

also had a lot of interesting problems finding financing too. Well, right, exactly. Exactly. Because this is is really That's such a distinct vision visually.

But just the entire story and commentary on bureaucracy. I mean that's yeah.

I I don't know. I I I was messaging uh Daeron the other day about this and I work at a corporate job I have for About fifteen years.

Um I worked in other Slightly different kinds of corporate environment, but this is one very specific one.

And I also work on the thirtieth floor of so when I was watching

the movie and they have the like the thirtieth floor. Like he keeps going back up there for the you know, I'm just like, Oh my God, his his horrible corporate life is my horrible corporate life.

And they just moved us into this space and you know what? Um his desk in there might have been bigger than mine. Like I don't know if I have three feet of office space at this point. I mean It's it's bad.

Yeah. It it that just sense that you're jammed into like a a cog in the machine and getting lost in that.

You know, I I don't I I'm gonna try to keep all of this to an exist you know, so I won't go on to an existential breakdown. Without my s my sensibility in that environment. But um

'Cause I'm not that person, you know. I just uh for whatever reason, my desire to uh and need to pay rent and have health insurance has kept me there, you know. That's a lot of jobs are that situation.

I think one of the real stars of this movie is the brutalist style of architecture that Gilliam uses. Um Yeah.

container living where you can lift up somebody's entire house with a crane transport it somewhere else and it's all connected by ducts and hoses and wires and just Those structures.

Provide this kind of stark.

uh difference between, you know, the haves and the have nots. And it's an almost subliminal reason

for the domestic terrorism that you see in this film. That struggle is real because you're living inside of it. Think think think Watts in the seventies. Think Cabrini Green.

You know? So yeah, just the very look of the film is designed to be oppressive. I mean it at the end when the when when Sam is

having his moment with Michael Palin, it literally looks like he's inside of an abandoned nuclear reactor. Yeah. Or a drain elevator. Yeah, it is just gray, gray, gray

And every and no. So much even the costumes have these different shades of grey, like it's it's all very complex and subtle. But you see it with the architecture too, you're right.

A and a lot of things are are the shoe hat. Oh my god. Oh my god.

the Catherine Hellman the leopard print shoe hat on on that reddit that red orange like cartoon hair is the I love that image. Like that's that

Oh, it's beautiful. It makes uh yeah, specifically like the costumer in me very, very happy.'Cause I well, those are also very fun type projects to work on in my opinion.

Um I d like I see a movie like this and I'm like what? Have you made shoe hat?

Uh, no, but I've made some other really crazy hats and headdresses before. Um when I worked in theater and for me those were that and I s when I see movies like this that have these different C um like all the different things like

uh Jonathan Price's kind of like his dream like armor and uh angel wings that he kinda has.

Like that's a I l always love working on those type costumes. And you can see so much loving care was put into all of that.

Like I'm sorry. But you're right. You can see it with the architecture in there too and like the sets.

I think the technical term for shoe hats is actually shats, but probably probably shouldn't get into that.

That's a different kind of film with shad on the head. Yeah, exactly. I think most of there's a lot of shots that are underlit too. So you've got this brutalist architecture, you've got the strange costumery, but you've also got a real film noir feel.

to this movie too. And you know, he's filling with Dutch angles. Everything is always just kind of off kilter and weird. So between all that and the cobbled together almost seventies meets fifties technology and and oh my god

Damn Japanese baby masks. Dude, straight from the from the video for f for the walk by the cure?

Yes. And they're just everywhere in this movie and it freaks me out. So yeah, there's a it is designed to unsettle you.

Visually, which I think psychologically gets you ready for the message that's actually being brought through in the story. Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah, it's um I don't I don't and the

Hold on. I had a note here that I was try I'm trying to find it. Go ahead, you guys talk amongst yourselves. I was just gonna say somewhere around the point in the movie where we were last talking, one of my favorite of the propaganda posters Shows up.

Where what suspicion breeds confidence?

Yes. I was just going to talk about I was just gonna say something about the propaganda posters. Oh, they're wonderful.

Oh my god, they're fantastic.

And I really got looking at a lot of propaganda posters when we started the podcast. Because we really wanted the retro like look and and feel with the name or whatever in the song.

And so I was looking at I so the all the propaganda posters that appeared in this movie were just fantastic. Like loose talk is noose talk.

You know, and they have it actually hanging hang down. And information is the key to prosperity. Like Happiness, we're all in it together.

And it's like those yeah, from the forties we had what? The the one that always comes to my mind first is the when you ride alone, you ride with Hitler about power sharing. Right. Um but yeah

My favorite poster in the whole movie is the one where where the kids are playing they don't play cops and robbers, they play Ministry of Information and Citizens.

But they're in front of a poster for top security holiday camps. Oh yes, exactly. I love that. Luxury without fear, fun without suspicion, relax in a panic-free atmosphere.

And the picture of the place, it's like fucking Erwan. It is just out in the middle of the ocean surrounded by a fence with an air patrol circling around it.

I know, I d I know, I saw that and I just and I st had to like stop. I was like, I gotta reread that. That is too funny. It Yeah, it's I it had been a long time since I'd seen this movie and um

I enjoy I mean I've always enjoyed it, but uh I you know, there are definitely certain things you catch more you see them. And that you know, all the different little things like that. Um I love when they're trying to get rid of the check.

The refund check. Oh yeah. For the guy who was was like, Oh, she doesn't have a bank account. Well I might as well go and hang myself right now.

The like I've never had a real office job. The only office I've ever had a job in was at the folklore department at college.

So and that was exactly what you would think the folklore department was. You know, and they used to share an office with the medieval studies department. So I mean there's people walking around with pieces of armor and, you know, old books and you know

mountain mountain recollections of medicine magic. And so it was very casual, you'd say. And since it was a university job, they weren't very bureaucratic. They was like, Yep, gov you know, everything it'll get paid for, whatever.

So this is all sort of through other people's eyes, but it's what I imagine an office job would look like.

Yeah, I ask X, have you ever had um an office job? Yeah. Oh yeah. And um

I the the last time I had an office job I had a a small breakdown and I haven't been able to go back to an office for I don't know about eight years now. Yeah.

Yeah. So so I'm not I'm not f I'm not for it, let's say. It's soul crushing. It's soul crushing. I don't like it. Okay.

It is however where I and I may have told this story on other shows, but indulge me because it's it's actually kinda funny. This is where I th this is where I got my name, is from that horrible soul sucking office job when I worked at this place

And you know, they're they're putting in all of your information. Well my real middle initial is W. Okay. Uh-huh. But at this place they had my X. So like my login was all JXM sum number, I don't know, but don't remember what the hell it was.

So it's like You know, this is actually a way cooler middle initial than what I actually have.

Yeah. And so and so it just stuck. People were just started calling me X, and then that's been pretty much my entire name ever since, just eponymous.

That's not the right word. But you know, I have I have a one letter name and that's how people know me. Like Madonna or Cher. Exactly.

Oh man, that's that's good. And they were one letter off.

Uh-huh. Wish.

Exactly. Well and I I love the whole the whole thing of the government doesn't make mistakes. The government doesn't make mistakes. I mean how many how many times do they say that in this movie? Or I mean I or it you know even in just

different Ida the entire attitude of no, we couldn't possibly be wrong You know, it's Where's his body? Oh look at the T V I surely don't know.

Yeah. Some of some of the dialogue is great in this.

Uh where I mean the you know, and they're talking about like the the sense of bureaucracy and in the system.

uh like you're basically the government just sees you at as you know your record in their computer system. Well when Lowry's trying to decide how to hide um The girl, I can't remember her name off the top of my head.

Why not? Jill. Jill, thank you. Um, I was blanking for a minute. Um the you know, the fact that he goes in and just puts in the c sets it up in the computer so it looks like she's dead.

Yeah. You know what I mean? And then it's like, oh okay, she's she's dead.

And the government that's a solution for them to stop looking for. And you see that in this world that Gilliam's constructed, yeah, that would probably work. Like like that would take their back.

But I mean, going to the funny dialogue, the Jill's response that when Lowry is essentially, you know, tells her that he's fixed the situation, she's like in, you know

Killed her. How about necrophilia? I mean like that's the invitation to have sex. It wa it was a heck of a line. Yeah, exactly.

What was was uh when one of the early bombings, somebody was like, Well won't won't you do something about these terrorists? It's like it's my lunch hour and it's not my department. Right.

Right. Yeah. And the the uh maybe I'm just thinking of the the Crimson Permanent Assurance uh

Which I'm pretty sure the music that's used in that is on one of the things that the boss is watching on TV, yeah? I was gonna bring it up. It was during that west Yeah, it's it's like the imploding, crushing weight of bureauc bureaucracy and the I don't Terry Gilliam's like

Britishness or view of the the British inclination to acquiesce to like structure?

He was the only American in the Python troop, so he always approaches Everything he does with that view of the outside.

That's yeah, it it seemed like he's like this is kind of like um he didn't direct a fish called Wanda, right? He didn't have anything to do with that.

No, he did not. Oh, okay. Then never mind. I was gonna draw off some like it seems that he has that, like you said, the outsider, the like, this is Oh well I think I I I think you see that a lot in the symbol

of the giant, which is very prevalent in Gilliam's work. I mean, you got the giant who comes up out of the ocean with the ship on his head and time bandits and Um Robin Williams character Perry in the Fisher King has this giant on horseback that represents his personal demons, his his mental

issues. And the things like that, they always place Gilliam clearly in the court of the little man who was fighting against

impossible. Uh so very proletariat viewpoint. I mean look at Sam. His last name is Low Re, if you read it, you know, just as it is. So Yeah, coming from the place of the low man, the little guy, and I've always loved that about Gilly.

Yeah, he even had a that s second of giant imagery in this with the guy looking over the nuclear reactors mob.

Well, and the and the giant.

The the samurai guy. Samurai. Yeah. You know, and and every time Sam has that little flying dream where you know there's

Earth itself tries to attack him, or the samurai warrior is trying to swat him down. I just think, Oh, look, there's my writing career.

Oh I bought one of your books on Amazon the other day.

Did you? Oh thank you for contributing to the cause. Yeah, I've but I've bought one of your books before too. I haven't read it yet, to be I but but I was working on this. This was one of the longest well actually this

This is the longest thing I've ever read for a show. The book that we'll get into later. That's that's that's fair.

Yeah, Daeron, just be gl again, be glad you didn't have to read the black metal one which was like five hundred something pages.

Oof, that would have been a...

And even though this this one was just, you know, sh shy of uh four hundred, it was m it was definitely dense material. So yes.

X I have a I uh no, I got one of your books too and I haven't read it yet either. I haven't

It's okay. You c you could just stare at it and treasure it. Just be like, oh

I know I I I now have this. I know that guy Yeah. Well I w I will get to it. No, I will get to it. I I have yeah. There's so many books I'm trying to get to. I'm trying to get better about my reading and

Yeah. This this show's actually been good about that.

Can we talk for a second about Michael Palin playing super effectively against type? Yes, please. He he is a malicious

Son of a bitch in this movie. He's cold and calculating and murderous. And he is great.

He is the perfect embodiment of bureaucracy at its worst. He is comfortable with both red tape and the red red crew. You know he's read like the seven habits of highly effective people just over and over again. He's got the calendar.

Screensavers and he is just scum and he steals everything.

The sequence where he has taken his daughter to work.

Oh my god!

And he walks in, he's got blood all over his smock and he's just Oh, hello. Oh and he can't remember her name. Yeah. She keeps going

Nam, I'm Holly and he's like, Oh, whatever. That's actually Terry Williams' daughter. Yeah. Who's really named Holly?

He is so good. So good in this. I r I mean he's always been one of my

Well I I I don't even want to parse them out. I like the Monty Python guys. Uh yeah, and you see Palin and you think, Oh, okay, good. I'm comf I know his face, I know his voice, I'm comfortable with him. Here comes the comic relief.

Here comes a baby mask and

Here comes here comes death. How you doing? Yeah. Tripped. Which is funny because my house is surprised. They're W when you look at Brazil uh the the movie, not the country, as a whole, um

There's there's no joy in this movie. There are very few moments of joy. I mean, you get Sam's daydreams, you know, where he's flying around like a blue Aladdin sane angel, and that's fine. But To to me, I think the only Uh

The only shot that I thought was really seemed like spontaneous and joyful was that really quick glimpse you see of those workers in their full on-fire suits playing volleyball in front of the blast furnace.

Now I thought that was interesting and that seemed like something that would actually happen, but everything else

Good God, every attempt to find just a glimmer of joy or happiness in this movie is squashed just from Jump Street. This is not an easy one.

Well, and then aside from uh you know, the the dreams, what seem to be the reality of, you know, happy you know, happy moments in Lowry's life or whatever that he has maybe with Jill or whatever, you have to wonder Are they actually happening?

I mean is he real you know, is he where is he in his level of sanity at that point?

You know, is he's n he's not a particularly reliable narrator we we find. You know. He's like like has the whole thing taken place while he's in the chair or Yeah, so so where at what point does he crack?

You know, well I mean in in

you know, actual reality, whatever reality is, do you know what I mean? It's it's a it's a very interesting way to start, you know, once you start well maybe it happened here, maybe it happened there. It I there are a lot of different ways

to see that. And I I th I that's one thing I've always enjoyed about this movie. I have I think, you know, and again, I'm not I'm really not trying to pimp my writing or anything, but I think when you are a when you are a writer or when you have creative tendencies

you you encounter times where you do retreat into your imagination. Now Sam um ends up staying there.

Exactly.'Cause it's the only safe place. And that's not a shock and it and it really shouldn't be, but you know, this

That makes sense to me. We create worlds in our head brains and those worlds tend to intrude upon the so-called real world. You know, they merge. And that only sounds crazy if it's never happened to you. But

They're yeah. It's it's safe in your head and that's that's that's where that's your escape. That's just where you go.

Yeah, I think uh RJ McCready I I posted in uh the Legion page and the VD Clinic podcast page.

asking for people to share their bureaucratic horror hell stories and I don't think anybody filled out the proper requisition forms because we got we got one response.

And it was from RJ McCready, who uh as we record this is I think hunting Dracula in Transylvania. Um He just said that he thinks that he heard Terry Gilliam say that the whole movie is a nightmare.

In uh one of the extras.

Yeah, I I cracked open the uh the Criterion Blu ray, which I I just bought myself. I was and uh I I haven't watched any of the extras yet and so Uh I think I'm probably gonna do that tonight and

Maybe I'll let you guys know. Maybe. Maybe. You're lucky. No. Now did he mean a real nightmare, as in the entire thing is a dream or just

A nightmare like oh dystopian nightmare or oh concrete nightmare. I think he was saying that uh it was all fabricated in his mind while he's in the chair.

Maybe. That's that's what he believes he heard. And maybe when we when we delve into the the extras

We might find out. Of course you never know with Terry Gilliam. He might have just been talking about making the movie was a nightmare. Yeah, that too.

No, I know he had a lot of issues with the studio uh getting this released how he wanted it.

Well yeah,'cause it was nineteen eighty five and you were looking at Ferris Bueller being a big hit and all of a sudden he's like, Hey, look what I made Right, exactly. Exactly.

However, I do like it when Bob Hoskins and Brian Pringle show up to fix the heat'cause it's like Hoskins is practicing for Super Mario.

Especially when you look at his costume. That hat. The hat would be unbelievable. Bill Those are strokes of genius. They're so just bananas.

Sorry, I'm not sure.

It's like that gag in Top Secret where you can see the phone ringing in the foreground and the Nazis behind his desk and he walks towards the phone to pick it up. And when he does, the phone is just huge.

Yeah. It's that messing with your visual perspective that really makes this movie unsettling. Yeah. Oh, that's another movie.

So Val Kilmer's best work.

I just I can't comprehend.

how Gilliam made this movie for fifteen million dollars and have it look as good as it did.'Cause you couldn't do that now. You could spend like you could spend like a hundred and twenty a hundred and twenty five, hundred and fifty million on this and it would not look as good as it does.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Well it was made in America, right? So stretch a dollar. I don't have to

So you stretched a pound? Um, I think some of it was made in the UK, maybe.

Gosh, let's go let's let's check. It's not like we don't have to The IMDB is always up, you know. Yeah. It's a shame we don't have a source of information about movies that's just right here at our fingertips.

Yeah, I think it's US and UK. Yeah. There you go.

I love that we're all like, okay, I gotta look now. Film in Brazil. Okay. Who can find it first?

Ha ha ha.

But yeah, this this movie is just it it had also been a long time for me and you know I it's a long movie but it doesn't feel too long but it still takes up that much time.

To watch. You know, so I don't get around to rewatching it as often as some of the other things.

Filmed filmed in the UK and France, by the way, no US filming. No US. Okay, well He knows how to stretch a frank.

And uh

Well'cause what, he didn't somebody's wife knit all the chain mail for Holy Grail? Like one of the the guy's wives and her friends.

But uh came from his early days. Yeah. But I don't know, you know, I I'm not too learned about

Gilliam as as, you know, as a fan of his movies. That's pretty much all I know. Um

But yeah, it's uh he fills the screen too. He always does that in all his movies. He just totally fills the frame. And right, right.

Yeah. Everything is a a feast for the eye.

Just as far as the the composition, you know, and just like the colors, everything. All the ducts everywhere. Oh yeah.

The rich people have fancy ducts. Yeah.

Pneumatic tubes coming out of everything.

But yeah, that desk that you pull back and forth between through the wall and

Teeny tiny screens with magnifying glasses on'em. Everything that's supposed to make your life better is so much more complicated.

Right. Right. I I loved when Tuttle filled up uh Super Mario's spacesuit with toilet juice. Yeah, that that was that was nice.

I think that's really when uh Sam understood that it's fun to try to beat the system because he laughed really hard at that.

That's kinda when you thought, Oh, okay, maybe there's something to this subversive action I keep hearing so much about. Exactly. Exactly.

And and and it goes I mean and it really you know examines like what exactly what exactly is subversive with the government.

You know, uh just because you're labeled subversive, what does that actually mean? What are you doing to I mean, is it just because You talk uh you know, as about certain things or disagree with their ideas, or are you blowing things up?

Or in some cases are you just existing. Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah.

That's um are you of a certain economic means? Like uh it really definitely I mean the the kind of interjection you know, um classism in this uh You know, it's the haves and have nots of course, but uh

It's it's all about the political pull too. Are you an old white guy? Well yeah, exactly. Yeah.

But, you know, the fact that Lowry's mother is friendly

or potentially romantic friendly with whatever high up minister of information guy and Oh right, with her photo on his desk. Yeah, exactly.

Maybe it's his dad. I forget. Did they say anything about his dad in the movie? No.

I don't I love how the Maitre D starts to push him away at the restaurant and she's like You recognise my son, don't you? I'm like Yes sir. Yes it's very, very divided.

And I mean the eighties were like that too. I guess it's always like that. I mean

I didn't vote for you. Not my king. You know what? There's a weird and I just remember this. There's a um there's an old skit from Flying Circus that kind of Echos that.

where the two women one of the women is talking about her son and how he's grown and how

how cute he is. And it's John Cleese and he's an adult. And they're talking about him like he's a child and he's like, Mother, I'm the spokesman for the Ministry of Finance. And she's like, Oh, isn't that cute?

So yeah, I mean debilitated with no definite mommy issues.

doesn't want the um promotion that she's been that she's managed to obtain for him through

Who knows how, even though we can guess. Right.

So he's he's Sam is really pulled in a lot of directions by things that he feels he cannot control. And once he starts to take control of his own life, that's what counts as subversive

behavior in that society and that's uh depressing a lot and I'd like to retreat into my own head and not think about that.

Yeah, it's um I I I know, it's a hard one that it's just would he have been happier just to stay as is?

you know, and just exist without the promotion or without, you know, going on this whole trying to fix, you know, a wrongful

you know, a wrongful conviction, essentially. You know, or you know, whatever paperwork mistake. Would he have been would that have fixed his situation and is or is his situation better for him too?

you know, make the choice for himself and or try to go you know, even try to use this connection that his mother has obtained, you know, to

you know, do something that potentially could be positive, you know, and freeing Jill or g well, finding out more information about her, but also I th I feel like he's he's trying to

correct more wrongs, you know, just like okay, I'll infiltrate the upper echelons. Um

Although I mean he's completely inept at it. You know. Because again, he's not well

When does his break insanity happen? Uh has it all right. Right. You know, it it it it it all

It does that is he completely sane at that point and this leads to his ineptitude, puts him in a situation that just leads to him breaking completely. I I mean it's

There's some there's something to be said for trying to subvert the system from within the system. Absolutely. But yeah, it doesn't work out real well here. No, I'm all for that actually.

If you can do that and have something good come out of it, right on.

Cause sometimes that that's part of what needs to be done in addition to people staying completely outside the system. You gotta get it from both sides.

Precisely. Yeah. Just my uh just my thoughts. Hey, well you've been inside the bureaucracy. Don't remind me.

So here's something g go ahead, go ahead. I was just gonna say, have you got a twenty seven B stroke six? Is that the form they're always asking for? I hate those.

It's like the T P S reports in office space. Yeah.

What were you gonna say which was probably gonna be a lot better than that?

I was gonna say that, you know, I actually did see this when it came out in the theater back in eighty five and

at that time they were really marketing it as a comedy, a a very dark comedy, but still. It was like, Oh, come see this, this is really funny. Um

Lots of sardonic humor and that typical Gilliam imagery with the distorted faces. That's funny. And things are moving that shouldn't be able to move. Like why is there a whole why is the elevator moving sideways? And why does it look like a double decker bus?

So and all that and then you could see like there was just almost mythological sense of conflict, you know, between when'cause in the preview of course you can see Sam flying around and trying to

whack people with his tiny little dagger. That sounded weird. Sorry. Um so yeah. Back then this was like, oh this is funny. Okay. We get it. It's socially conscious, but it's a comedy. You know what? It's not funny anymore.

No. It's not funny. It's terrifying. I mean it's it's it's fun to see Robert De Niro move around the city on a on a zip line. Oh, absolutely. But

You know, from a certain perspective, this may as well have been broadcast from the future by the Brotherhood of Sleep. So this Yeah, absolutely not But do you uh but do you think that's seeing it

now like as an adult compared to seeing it when you first saw it when it came out in the theaters? Like just where you are at in your age in life? Or do you think it's the world around you or both?

Well, remember when this when this came out, I was in high school and Reagan was president. Yeah, I know.

Right. Exactly.

So I already felt dirty. We were all filthy then. Oh God. So um you get more jaded the older y you get, so

That's that's probably a reason why I don't find a whole lot of humor in this movie anymore. And also just being me, I'm like, Wow, this is way better than that nineteen eighty four adaptation for that they cut the arrhythmic s song out of. Yeah.

Which actually when I saw that in the theater, they played the song, but just over a blank black screen. What? Why? I didn't I don't understand that agreement.

But no, you y y you look at a movie like this now and you just think, Okay, this this really feels like a documentary.

You you learn more about how the system works and what it does to, you know crush people under its tank tread of alleged progress and uh it's just it's it's awful.

Yeah. I don't know. It can it's a little bleak. Um just a just a tad. Just a little bleak.

Like I said, I I mean it's I started looking at it and you know, not only just looking at how, okay, politics, whatever we're um different things, like I was saying, Board of Elections, go to the D M V, anything like that that you have to deal with a as an adult.

you know, you see more and more complexities of red tape and annoyances and just general bullshit. Um but When I started when I was watching this and I was there were just certain things about it

that I was like, that's my job. That's like I was yeah.

that's really bleak when you're just like, Yeah, that's kinda how m I'm looking at my daily this is my I gotta go to work now.

I gotta sit in my teeny tiny office, you know, table space, whatever. I gotta fill out all these correct forms. Uh which I do.

Um, as part of my job. I have very specific forms I have to fill out for things. Like it you know, it's just

Yeah. It it's it's great, you know, and yeah, you could sit there I could sit there and laugh at certain things still because it's just the way it's written.

Um but

Yeah, not a lot of humor. And I it I don't remember it being quite this

humorless. So I th yeah, I think I'm just le I'm not less humorous but that I used to be. I still find joy in humor and things, but not in this film.

Well I've You know what I mean? Yeah. Not as much as I used to. For better or worse. For better or worse, you said. Sorry, I didn't mean to jump on you. Yeah, for better or worse. I mean the last time I saw this movie

Uh you know, Donald Trump was some idiot in New York, you know, that had a failed football league. The world was a little bit made bit more sense.

Not to get melodramatic, but you know like that'll sort of take a lot of a lot of wind out of a lot of sails. Um It was still a still a lot of horrible things going on.

Uh yeah. I mean, and you weren't seeing this resurgence of like

the white supremacist like fascist thinking, you know, and people having to punch Nazis in streets. Like I don't know, man. We had Nazi punk

Yeah. Skinheads who'd show up right skinheads who'd show up to matinee.

Try to hurt everybody. That's right. Oh really? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Well, but we didn't ha it didn't seem to be to the degree that it is now.

Where they had p with political power. Open political power. Yeah. They all got suits and jobs in the Trump administration. Yep.

Stephen Miller, I'm sure well, he's only thirty something, so

He wasn't there in the eighties, but he was He knows who swerve driver is. You can't Yeah, I'm sure that's he fills up uh Trump.

Bunch of that stuff while he's watching Fox and Friends. Good morning, sir. Do you enjoy Nitzer Ebb?

A moment of silence.

Uh No, I mean it's February. We're talking about bureaucracy and fascism, but I repeat.

'Cause yeah, this isn't just a movie about bureaucracy. There is a definite fascist aspect here.

Yeah, and then especially when we move further on and get a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of

Which yeah. Which is even more focused that way. But yeah, there's the I mean the Ministry of Inform it's very Orwellian and I know that's on purpose.

Yeah, there were a lot of nods to Orwell in this as far as like different like way things were numbered or like references to

things in, you know, novels and that whatever else, like from Orville. So not just nineteen eighty four, but So it's I I think it was a I don't know if maybe that was part of what it affected people seeing it in the theater too is nineteen eighty four had come out

That movie. Mm-hmm. You know, right around the same time. Did people want to see another kind of dystopian future? I don't know.

Well the thing that Brazil had going for it was you didn't have to see John Hurt's dick.

That was on the first poster, right? It was. That was the first poster.

Ha ha.

Big brother is watching you.

Yikes. Oh man.

I know we're all kind of bummed out right now. Yeah. So okay, so so let's see if there's anything positive that we can take from Brazil, because I think there is.

Yeah, and I I I wanted to yeah, let's try to direct it back to something positive before we start to wrap things up. I d I can't end on a damn note talking about the movie.

I think if anything, Brazil serves as both a warning and a reminder that there are

forces out there, people out there, who don't give a fuck about your dreams or your freedom to pursue them. And it is your right and it is your duty and your responsibility to resist those people.

Very eloquently put.

See, that's why we brought you on here, Rex. Uh it was just for the dick jokes. Oh well. Well you know Double package. Yeah. Full package.

No pun intended on that. Yeah. Oh, come on. You intended the pun. Maybe. Maybe a little bit. Okay.

Oh man.

But yeah, I'm g I'm I still really like the movie. I mean I I like some movies that make me feel bad. Uh uh Yeah and this doesn't mean that's a good thing.

bring you down to the level of feeling bad as say like watching something like Requiem for a Dream. But you know, where you're like, Oh God, everything is shit. I don't want to get out of bed for a month, you know.

Fill it all with fire. Right. This at least i does It's not the only thing in color in Schindler's list.

Yeah, I think I think I think it's there is some sort of sense of hope in here and resistance.

But uh

It is a c yeah, definitely cautionary tale and and uh yeah, everything X said, that's uh that was that was a very good way to put it. Yeah, yeah, I think I think that was

That was the uh that was the cap on that. My work here is done.

Oh let's see. Were you gonna say So uh what? I said uh as you were saying. Um so would you recommend this? Uh X? Oh sure.

Yeah, I would recommend this. Um I think it would be interesting to see how right now this movie plays uh down divided party lines.

I'm sure you'd have one side going, Oh well that's unfortunate, but such that's just the way things need to be. And the other side's just like I'm going to burn you down.

I'm going to burn down your house.

Um, so yeah, I totally recommend this. Um, if for nothing else the the thought that, you know, fascism never leads to good things unless you count revolution against fascism.

And even so, that's something that you never really see come to full triumphant fruition in Brazil. So yeah. Don't no don't go in looking for, you know, puppies and rainbows, but it's definitely worth watching.

Uh, Daeron? Oh, easily. And especially to any any fan of his other movies. I think this you know if you've got a day, you can watch two of his movies, maybe three.

Um I think yeah, exact I we've been saying this a lot, but like like X said, you know

If you especially if you're prepared for it. Uh'cause I think like the second time I ever watched this, I had forgotten the ending.

And so when they are driving away in the in the truck after the daring escape and uh they're driving away into the sunset bordered by Billboard.

Oh okay, wait, I don't remember it ending so happy. Oh it doesn't

Oops. That's right.

You know, it's the parents exploding with the toaster oven. It's you know No don't

What about you, Vanessa? Uh yeah, I would rec definitely recommend it. Um but again, y I I would have to point out it's a dark comedy. It you know, that it

not necessarily comp it's not even though it's got these different elements and people from Monty Python, it's not silly. You know? And uh And I know I but I you know I I

I don't th I I I've had I guess I've had most of my friends have seen this already and we're all on the same page there. Yeah, but uh interestingly enough, but um yeah, definite recommend.

Definite recommend.

Although again, I have to point out it's scary in this day and age. Don't watch it after you've had a stressful day and you need to wind down. Right. Put on time bandits or something.

Yeah, put on something sillier like Baron Munchausen. Yeah. Which those uh Baron Munchausen and Time Bandits were supposedly linked to this in some sort of Mental trilogy?

Yeah, that's what I I read that on IMDB. The trilogy of imagination, I think it said on there. Yeah. But I don't know.

I don't even know how you update IMDB, but I assume it's like updating Wikipedia.

Like anybody can do it. Well, I mean if you're I mean there are people like if you have your own profile on there, you can you have to ha there's like a security access if you like can alter it.

as far as like adding different things to a resume, but there's a certain amount I guess that other people can add. I don't know.

Anyway. It's it's not the happiest of those three movies. Oh, agreed.

Okay. Well um actually

Thank you for coming on. Um would you like to tell everybody what you've got going on? I mean, you know, you are retiring now from podcasting, at least maybe temporarily or for good, whatever. I

We'll see. I don't want to be one of those guys that's like, yep, quitting forever, and then I come back, you know, the next year like Peyton Manning. I don't want to deal with that. But

You can still listen to uh some shows that I'm on, which would include Kiss the Goat and The Food Chain, Cinema Beef Podcast, Theme Warriors.

Um, I'm doing some guest spots this last month that I'm going to be active, so uh you'll still be able to find my voice pretty much anywhere.

But I'll be on Facebook, find me there, find me on Twitter.

Um

I'm really bad about giving links. Just, hey, go look. I'm like that chick on the match.com commercial. Come and find me. I feel so bad for her. Because you know what?

There are probably people stalking that chick right now and she has no idea. Just uh that

Freaks me out. Come and find me. Yeah, I'm coming, baby. I know, I know. Oh, just gives me chills. I don't like

But you'll but you'll still be writing. I s yeah, I'm still writing. I'm working on uh a new novel right now, which is the sequel to Hunting Witches. So hopefully that will be out Summer?

Okay. Depends on how fast I can write. Yeah. But yeah, I'll be around doing stuff. I'll pop up, so not a stranger, just not as active. Yeah. Okay.

That's good to hear. Well I mean we r yeah. I wanted to make sure we got you on here before, you know.

And you know what? I really appreciate it. I really appreciate it. I mean a lot of people have listened to me babble on one show or another for the last Jesus, seven years. So I appreciate everybody who's ever had me on as a guest.

Including especially you, so Well and you've had Daeron and I on uh separately.

And it was fun, wasn't it? It was a good time. Hooray. Yes. Kingdom of the Spiders made one of my top my top five for last year. First time watches, yeah.

Good. Well good. We've all had good times and we can go back and relive those through internet archives. Um unless and this is just a possibility, unless I'm actually sitting in a chair with a cager on my face inside of a nuclear reactor.

Okay. Well there you go. Still buy his book if that's the case. Exactly.

Make my fantasy complain.

Yes, exactly. Okay. Well thank you. And um Daeron and I will be back next to discuss the book. Thanks.

I'm Cootie. My name is X. And I'm Chef Al, and we're your hosts on the Kiss the Goat podcast. On our show, we're gonna break down some of your favorite devil movies from

fifty years. We also drink and talk about religion. Which is a terrible

That is a great idea. And I'm gonna give you some great recipes.

And I also I do it.

I tell terrible jokes, saying what I'm drunk. And I Kiss the goat exclusively on the Legion Network of Podcasts.

Uh, seriously, can I get some money? Just do the job, Al Broadcasting from the Cursed Earth.

The Psycho Semanticast. Let us face without panic the reality of our time. The fact that atom bombs may someday be dropped on our cities. And let us prepare for survival by understanding the weapon that threatens us.

to have a uh an ignorant uh thin-skinned megalomaniac.

Who sends off Twitters at 3 a.m. if somebody angered him? The neo-Nazi's turning up in Washington DC to have a rally saying heil Trump. We talk about politics.

You corporate grease balls. We talk about movies. You can't come down here and arrest people just because of what they look like. Are you crazy? But that's police harassment. We talk about political movies. We're in trouble.

They're all around us, and we never knew'em. You can only see them with these special glasses. The psychosemanticast.

And we're back, uh, to discuss the um

Upt I kept wanting to say Upton Sinclair. I knew I was gonna do that. The Sinclair New Lewis novel. It can't it can't happen here.

Yeah, I don't know. I had I knew it was Sinclair Lewis and um I I just all of a sudden I was reading it and I know I I

probably messaged you but I at the moment when I realized it's written by Sinclair Lewis, not Upton Sinclair. Which they were contemporaries, but

Yeah. I had like a total brain fart, that or I was really stoned or something, and it was all like, Oh shit.

Well I mean I definitely was more was familiar with Upton Sinclair before I ever knew who Sinclair Lewis

Agreed. Agreed. Um I haven't read a lot of either one, but um yes, I knew the name of Sinclair before I knew St. Clair de Lewis's name.

I think it had like short stories or something. I guess that's true. I need to think back because I you know, as an English major or and literature and creative writing, I took a lot

classes. But I definitely feel like Upton Sinclair.

Definitely. Definitely. Um Yeah, I know. As an English major the i I definitely heard

Upton Sinclair before that. But

Anyway, Sinclair Lewis's It Can't Happen Here. I I'm gonna give a I I wanted to find a synopsis of this because uh there's so much we can

say about the story. But okay, here's the Wikipedia condensed version.

It Can't Happen Here is a semi-satirical 1935 political novel by American author Sinclair Lewis, and a nineteen thirty-six play adapted from the novel by Lewis and John C. Moffat.

Published during the rise of fascism in Europe, the novel describes the rise of Berzelius aka Buzz Windrop, a politician who who beats Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

and is elected president of the United States after fomenting fear and promising drastic economic and social reforms while promoting a return to patriotism and traditional values.

After his election, Wintrip takes control of the government and imposes a plutocratic slash totalitarian rule with the help of a ruthless paramilitary force.

in the manner of Adolf Hitler and the SS. The novel's plot centers around a journalist, Joramus De Doramis Jessop, in osp opposition to the new regime and his subsequent struggle against it as part of liberal rebellion.

Reviewers at the time and literary critics ever since have emphasized the connection with Louisiana politician Huey Long.

who was preparing to run for president in the nineteen thirty six election when he was assassinated in nineteen thirty five just prior to the novel's publication.

Okay.

I don't know. Some of these uh little things in a description sound familiar to um my

potential person we have in power right now in the United States. Eerily so eerily so and uh so as you were saying earlier that a bunch of people started talking about the book.

during the last presidential election.

And that's why it f what first put it you know, put it on my radar. Um and oh my goodness.

There are just so many things in here that could the descriptions of Wintrop when he's running and then when he's president.

i it's it could it could be just talking about Trump.

Uh just the even like there are casual lines in there about talking about like, oh his wife is just I mean basically the way they describe him and his relationship with his wife in public.

And her is like first lady. Like like little they'll make a casual comment in the book about it and it's like, Oh my God, it's Melania. Poor Melania. It might as well be her. Like

Um blink twice, Melania. Yeah. Blink twice, Mrs. Windrip. Yeah, exactly. Um you know, but it there's just a whole platform of

Wow, there's just so much here in in this book. And um What got me the, um...

And we're gonna try I I I mean, I don't I don't wanna rant too much politically, but I I there're just so many parallels you can draw to towards to things going on now.

'Cause when they're talking about Winthrop campaigning

And he comes up with like this fifteen point plan or or uh what do they call it? The fifteen points of victory for the forgotten men. And it's and it's just So many of the things I

that are in there could be taken from a Trump make America great again speech. Yeah, like his twenty I think he had twenty points or twenty promises of what he would do in the first hundred days. And

Right. The corpor government.

Right. Well and the fact that Wintrip once he's elected seps up sets up well

or inspires but sets up, you know. The lines are blurred. This paramilitary group called the Minutemen, like, hello, like we've got these groups running around the borders here in the United States now

you know, anti immigration group, the Minutemen. Um like the the Nazi the the the khaki, the khaki uh uniform. Oh right. I just

so many things, like little details. You're like, I could be watching CNN and see that today. I mean, we're not in the extreme place that the book takes us to.

But not to remain on a bleak note after our Brazil discussion, i they're just it's like you could see us we're not many steps away.

You know, it's that cautionary tale of we're gonna go down that d we c we can't go down that rabbit hole.

Yeah, uh like he keeps repeating at the end of so many parts, it was like, Oh no, can't happen here and then it just each little step, each you know

It's eerie. It it was th I think that's part of why it took me longer than usual to get through this book, which is about what, four hundred, four hundred fifty pages?

Um, I think my copy was like three eighty five or something. Oh okay. So yeah. Uh it wasn't the biggest to print though, I will say that. Um well yeah, and it was just

there's it's really dense with information. I mean you follow the main character, um, the journalist, Dharmas Jessup, it you know, and it's how he ends up

I it's just you might as well be saying fake news. Like like the stuff that's being thrown at like his his little newspaper that he's got going and You know, and how it's like he has to start suppressing that and then he starts uh an underground newspaper and

Vermont Viligence or was that the Vigilance? Not Viligence. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Vermont Viligence.

But and they you know, and and he ends up

that i I mean it was written in nineteen thirty five and there was that anti communist sentiment here in the United States at that time. And they really talk about it in this book.

And You you know, the fact that once he starts realizing these different things of okay, I'm not totally there, but it it's the communists they have a lot of good points and why they're opposing the government.

You know, and different things and

they're willing to, you know, put their lives or whatever on the line. Like I need to, I guess, step up. Like he's just kinda realizes he can't sit there. It's the level of resistance with like Brazil, we were talking about Lowry.

you know, realizes something has to be done.

Yeah, uh uh what, uh another another person sort of

Thank you. Um but Yeah, so

Yeah, there's Doremus Jessup and Senator Trowbridge. Mm-hmm. And yeah, but the whole

I mean it's as bleak as it sounds. It's just s shows how easily it could happen.

If nobody cared. And that that's I think one of the things'cause everybody got swept up in the oh, we're gonna get five thousand dollars a year and

America will be great again. Exactly. It's totally what it is. Um totally what it is. And and and it's not There are moments where it's it's got this darker humor about it.

You know, so it's not it's not as bleak as it could have been. Yeah.

It definitely, even though it felt a little bit more realistic to me, it didn't feel as bleak as something like nineteen eighty four, which we've brought up already. Oh no. No, absolutely not.

I think the the satirical bits to it really keep you going and uh But there's just so mu it's like a avalanche of you know, well that how much is actually put in place to stop people from doing Right.

Well and you know, it these just things are talking about let's patrol the border, let y you know it

Let's control this tax or you know, that who has freedom to or a access to this thing? It's It I yeah, you can see them in so many dystopian stories.

Um but I I don't know. This you're right, this seems a lot more realistic. And I think that's what makes it so terrifying.

Yeah.'Cause I I I w I had moments where I went I would be reading it and I'd go back and forth between being angry

And just kind of terrified. Yeah. Because I'm like, oh my God. Especially again when I realized.

That's a small, subtle thing, but shit, I can see that happening right now. Mm-hmm. You know, it's oh my goodness. There's so many th so many little things. It

It's a yeah, again, it it does it is kind of dense when you're reading the book because there's just so many different ideas and compacted in there. Um But it's um I kinda love that it's

you have this person, I mean, when I mean a Jessup I mean is a pretty, you know, likable character, you know, pulling you through the storyline and with his family and the paper or whatever they had going, but how different

how the government s starts changing, how it affects him and his job, how it starts affecting his family, uh all the different members of the family. Like the fact that his older son ends up becoming like on the side of the fashion.

you know, becoming a flunky four the the dictatorship.

Meanwhile his daughters

putting their one puts her like gets herself killed in like a suicide mission trying to destroy one of these fascist officers, you know Oh, so badass though. But yeah.

Spoiler alert, but it you know it it is. But it's it's like they they don't start out in those places at all. They're just people trying to live their daily lives and

Ever it just they see a little bit more every day going down this path of just shit's going wrong. Yeah, and you see how everybody

is guided by different motivations. You know, I mean his son fig figured for himself that it was either it fit more with his ideas or that it's easier to go along.

You know, for some people, especially I mean he didn't uh you know, they're one of the things that they were doing was I mean, immediately after he came into power he took away rights from like all the minorities, all the women and

uh not you know, immigrants and uh non like white guys, you know, like like happens. Um

Right. And then you put up and then you get start your concentration camps and put your political in our enemies in there. Yep, and you're protecting them. You know, yeah, you're protecting the public from those agitators.

You know, Annie's pr you know, oh I'm gonna protect all my friends who have money or you know, or like who have this different position in the government, you know, whatever.

Yeah, it's it's pretty pretty spot on. And uh yeah, I I like that you threw in the spoiler alert'cause I think

It's harder to assume that people have read a book or ha you know, have had enough time to read a book than it is, you know There are lots of people that probably haven't read this book and it's almost Coming up on a hundred years old and uh well I guess it's closer to a hundred than seventy five.

Exactly. Right. And I mean i it's you know, I could have put said spoiler alert alert beforehand, but I think on this show we established long ago we don't give a shit, but Yeah. And No, I I mean because

You know, it's I it I know with books, I I understand some people may not, you know, necessarily read them or it may take them a long time to read it. But um Even yeah, even though with things like you're you know, finding out something doesn't mean you can't go and enjoy it on your own.

That's my kind of feeling on the spoiler alert situation. Yeah, and if you're listening if you're this far into a discussion about a book and you haven't read it, then you're just listening for the fun of it and you don't care. You know Exactly.

Right. That's totally fine too. Um

But uh yeah, uh you're right. Like the book has been out long enough that we feel no guilt. We feel less guilt about about this than you know maybe spoiling next month.

Um I think we know how that turned out though.

Uh Yeah, it's just I I feel uh I feel like some of the especially when they were taking away, you know, working to remove voting rights and power and stuff from people.

Yeah. We we both read the news and pay attention.

a lot. But there have def there were definitely days, like you said, where I was reading a part of the book and then, you know, I would be checking out what what had happened that day. I was like, oh, that kind of reminds me of this book I'm reading.

Yeah. It's weird. And it doesn't always have to go that way. But things things that happened in the book happen in real life.

Right.

And pointing out the fact that it you know, it could It it doesn't have to take a long time to go down this

horrible path and horrible and extreme path. Because the way it's described in the book, it's basically

after an i mean protests started the day of inauguration. I mean they even have that in the book. I'm like, oh my God Hello You know, I just see like that's what I'm saying. You see so many people in this day and age who were not

I you know, who were not out on the streets protesting or whatever engaged or bare minimum, um until about a year ago.

True. And sh I um It's it's it's one thing that I just find so interesting about this book and the fact the where they how you see it once it gets to its extreme point in the book And they tell you how short of a t period of time it's been.

Like you go it goes on and tells you this whole story.

But it wait there's i he waits sinc Sinclair Lewis like waits this long time, I think.

to say like to mention the time frame of all government changes. So it's like all of a sudden like an oh shit, it ha he's barely even been in office a year and all and this is where he is.

Yeah. Like once you realize that it's like, oh oh man, it's much more serious than you think. And it's the the little changes can add up quickly.

And people can be like everybody's complacent, you know, and all happy and but once I mean they talk about in the book and

you know, see how people or maybe sup that supported this candidate once that candidate's in office, this is where they've hit their point that they're disillusioned and you're seeing it you know, you see it more and more.

Still has extreme support from the evangelical set. Uh no matter no matter what they've done.

Right. If people are being called liberal with that slur in the pronunciation. Mm hmm. You know. Um Str you know, yeah, stoking stoking the flames, trying to drum up a war.

Right. To build popularity and consolidate power. Yeah. Well when they you know, they were having the whole thing about patrolling the Canadian border. I was like I was waiting for them to say, Can we build a wall?

I was waiting for that, but back then people would have laughed and been taken straight out of the story.

Yeah. But yeah, it's just, you know, the lackeys getting put into place, deregulating everything.

to strip that sort of control, especially you know, eliminating parts of the government that would keep his branch in check. It's it Yeah.

some of these things of

promoting this person or you know or keeping this person in this position, it takes place via means of murder, you know? It it's it's not just, oh, I know so and so.

It's oh, I'm gonna kill off this person and this position and put so and so in it because so and so agrees with me.

Yeah. Or maybe not killing off people now. Um, not yet. Um or that we know of. Yeah, as far as we know. Yeah, as far as we know.

Yeah, well was there there were at least two coups within the government. Yeah, it's um

Which makes you wonder, okay, put it in today's perspective, will there be a coup or will there not? See, it I was a little shocked.

I I there's not a lot of things that he I mean, it there's been a lot of oh Jesus, he really but I was really shocked when he went after the press Yeah the FBI, the CIA

Yeah. All at once. You know, usually you need one of them. Right. Um so it's it's just so bizarre.

Y and then v I mean, I'm sure there I I would imagine more of the people in the military that share his views in our life.

Aren't high ranking enough to do the stupid crazy things that he wants to have done. There are some. John Kelly's a piece of shit. You know. He's he's nativist and he's anti immigrant. Anti immigrant.

But uh it yeah.

It's so many parallels.

I don't know if the military will help him do any couple.

Or help you know. Right. And we're not at the level, thankfully, of you know, we're thankfully we're not at the level of violence that this book portrays. Not yet, but still it's on the rise.

Right. And or even these vigilante groups which in the book wasn't the the Minutemen or whatever, weren't they didn't they start out as a volunteer like

And it wasn't like an organized military thing. Correct. They just started on their own. It was like a militia. Rabid supporters. Hate group, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, so what's to say that's kind of well, yeah, you're right. It's happening now. With his support they gained power and you know, uh they were unrestricted.

By the normal mechanisms of

the bureaucracy slash government that I mean a lot of it is run with the understanding that people will do what has been done. There isn't as much in place to force

Adherence. Mm-hmm. It's you know, it's yeah, it's It's entertaining and sha uh frightening.

Yeah. Uh and there've always been the I I think Yeah, this was written during during the rise of Hitler and that's the the blueprint the blueprint.

There are already concentration camps in uh Germany at this time. Yeah, and uh you know, America was Still being America First, which we've been hearing again, which is what originally from the KKK something like that.

But this was written before we got into the war. Yeah. So it's uh And at a time where we were kind of complacent in some things, maybe. Maybe just a little. Quite possibly. I I forg you know we hadn't Uh we hadn't started our own concentration camp.

For our Japanese citizens, yet at this point, but

Right. That's coming. There were what, that giant Nazi rally at Madison Square Garden had happened or was gonna happen soon. Right.

Just just as uh just as possible back then. And I think that's was that thing from was it Nietzsche or n I don't know how to pronounce his name not sounding like a dumb American. Nietzsche.

Nietzsche uh that Rusty Cole took for um

True detective, the time is a flat circle. It just k keeps happening at with little differences. And um I think that's one of the things that I liked about this book was that it showed you that w of more people

will have a tendency, I think, to resist that sort of bullshit. Then eventually. You know. It's easy to whip people up into a frenzy with a lot of false promises, but

Right, which is one thing I found interesting about the book, which I'm like, Oh my god, that's so much fucking Trump where they d where Jessup describes early on while it's still he's still campaigning

that this guy can talk and whip people up into a crowd and then when he's finished talking you have no idea what he said. Mm-hmm. I'm just like, oh my God, it's so fucking true. Like

If if I didn't know that he doesn't read, I would have thought that uh Trump had read this book, but Right. Right. Maybe he listened to the audiobook. Uh Cliff's notes.

it's the blue it's the blueprint. It's like the um I was just talking about this the other day, uh the the dead zone, uh Stilson. Yeah. You know, he's the type of guy that would show up in a limousine

And put on a hard hat and say he's a man of the people. Right. Right.

Yeah. I uh and you know it's

Um, what I had a point I had another point I was gonna make, but I can't remember what it was. I'm doing good today. I really am.

Hey, you well, I think this has been a hell of a show if I don't say so myself. The the Board of Elections sat me out this morning. It really did. Um

A few hours of that, that's always fun on a Saturday. Um Which, you know, it they I was I I found it interesting actually that the in the book they didn't bring up anything like I mean they did have the thing about like voting rights.

taken away, you know, and and different things like that. But I felt like I mean it's it could have been an opportunity that got question about questionable voting ethics and you know, that kind of thing could have been thrown in there too.

But I don't think that

I don't know. That w that what the

I guess it was was the the prevalence of in like the twenties and thirties when there were like in Chicago you would find all these dead people voting and it was a real problem. Mm hmm. Or like

Gangs of New York. Yeah, but I wanna say it was like the twenties and thirties. It was it w they started uncovering a lot of it, you know.

corruption and corrupt voting going on and so I was just

thought I mean I guess it depends on when that actually happened. I don't know my specific history on that. Um but as far as timeline goes, but yeah. That you know, it's there's just

Yeah, get elected on that. Make America great promise. That's a eight I can't say it any other way.

It's just it's very eerie. It's very eerie. Yeah. A guy that doesn't know what he's doing, tells everybody a bunch of stuff that he's not really ever gonna do. Right. Gets elected.

Um has a corporate government.

Uh he i it doesn't like the newspapers.

thinks that anybody that doesn't like him is a traitor.

Right. Got a bunch of crazy violent people that wanna

Wear the same color clip put on some khakis and you know, march through the streets with tiki torches. I mean and and honor his name. Yeah. And his vision. Quote unquote vision.

I you know, people are f very divided. It's not like

Yeah. It's th yeah, it's it's creepy. It's creepy. I I it's I g it's it's more it's a word that has more weight than creepy, but you know, it's just Every time you think about something, some other part of it, it's like, Oh yeah.

Yeah, I um I don't know. There's it it Like I said, it's there's just so much in there and I I don't think that

I think it would behoove someone to read it rather than for us to go on a million years about like every single little um minutia with some of it, you know? But Yeah, the book describes the self better than we Yes, of course.

Because I mean it's just constructing this whole elaborate world like Gilliam did with Brazil. You know, to bring it back to that. It's just that

You know, it's that in you can see in in the way it's written, it you can see it in your head. It's I mean it's very it has a very visual sensibility without being like o a overly descriptive kind of like

pretty flowery words, you know, I mean like it it's not that kind of it's not that kind of writing style. It's not flowery language but it's very like visually descriptive.

I you know you just get the sense, I mean, of this the vision of it.

Yeah, that is done very well.'Cause I think y over description can

muddle it in your in your mind too,'cause I I recently reread American Psycho. I don't know I don't know why I r have read it more than once, but

You know, some of the parts and I know it's on purpose to sort of show the consumerism and the everything of Patrick Bateman, but when he talks for two pages about a shirt, I don't care.

You could just W and but I mean in with that book, the character

It's it b it gives you a full image of what that character is. So there is a purpose behind it. Yeah.

Um however not necessary all the time and sometimes you there's something to be said about you know condensing you know maybe instead of two pages it could have been one, it could have been just as effective.

Yeah, and and in this, you know, it really And it's yeah, you don't have that here. Yeah. It keeps the story going, it keeps it about the actions, it keeps it about the people. You know, you see the world, but it's the world

isn't as much of a focus as the people within it. Right. You know. It it's background like it should be in this kind of story. And

I've got a digital copy of it and I've got the audiobook. The audiobook's pretty good.

Oh yeah, who who uh narrated it? Uh I couldn't tell ya. Well I can tell you, but I couldn't tell you off the top of my head. Um I d I'm still not very uh knowledgeable of

the different famous audiobook readers. I know there's some that are like st you know Stars.

Well I I I mean I didn't know if it was like oh as read by James Earl Jones or something. You know what I mean? Like something like that. No, no. It's somebody called Grover Gardner.

Yeah. It it's not like Jim Dale who did all those Harry Pot Harry Potter books or you know, oh I love that Sir Ian McClan did Ja, het is niet...

See, I I'm not an audiobook person, but I suppose if I found the right person with the right voice

I might get into it. Like I could listen to Ian McKellen read the Odyssey. Yeah. That's awesome. Absolutely. Bruce Campbell reads all his audiobooks.

So it's just like you're listening to him talk for a couple hours? Well something like that makes sense. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, I wish Christopher Lee did so you know, there's those dream voices that you would just hear do anything. Ron Pearlman. I w I I wish he would do some stuff like that. But um

Sorry. Sidetrack. Sidetrack. That's more common over over on the psychosomantic.

Here we've got a plan. No, we don't. And if you came on board thinking that, you are sadly mistaken, sir.

Have you listened to our shows? All right, I quit. You've been on our shows, you know this. It was a pleasure having my first and last uh

non guest appearance co host. Um we'll find somebody else uh whose name starts with a D

That uh yeah, no. I thrive on chaos in in this sense. I it's a I I've never been one that writes a outline. I that was my least favorite thing to do in a writing process.

is to know what I was gonna talk about beforehand.

Well, I c I kind of feel that you can go step by step through something. I mean I c I am perfectly I am perfectly capable of being of doing that. However I sometimes you need to just have the conversation about overall or just here and there and how, you know, different moments.

sometimes that's a way to better express how you feel about, you know, a a book or movie like Yeah. So that's why I don't necessarily

adhere that plus yeah. Just r I think uh my brain works better the random thoughts, but

Yeah. Well and what you know with Brazil it's it's kinda hard I mean in a way it is and isn't kinda hard to follow to do a Terry Gilliam move.

in the traditional movie review structure. I mean it can be done by people that are better than me. But it is a fluid, flowing

Creature. Every time I watch one of his movies, did you notice something different? You pick up on another one of the th thousand threads that he's laid through there for anybody to pick up. Mm-hmm. Um

And as you unravel one, even if you've unraveled that from beginning to end, once you get to the end of that you might

It might stick about another thread that's unraveled and then you have to go back and trace where that began. Yeah. You know, they kinda s like, Oh yeah, that wait, that wasn't that part, you know, or whatever. Yeah.

Yeah. So I yeah.

Oh, they're coming for ya.

That yeah, you heard the uh sirens. No, that was the uh fire department. Not not me, thankfully.

Nothing. Send over uh Bob Hoskins to You said it was an emergency. Um So is there anything else you want to say about the book?

I I mean we could we could have talked about this for a couple minutes or we could go on for another hour. I think anybody that's listening right now that hasn't read the book

If you're listening right now, you should you would enjoy it. Um obviously you've made it this far with us. But um it's kinda hard to

Describe that world until you see it. And we're seeing some of it now, so maybe uh Use the study aid.

Thank you.

Yeah, I don't know. What about what about you? Well, it's funny, um Uh yeah, I think it's because there's there's such this visionary world that's laid out, it is easier to read the book than to

say everything about it. And I don't want the you know, I and I didn't want this

necessarily our discussion about this book to turn into an incredible political rant, which I mean, obviously I knew it's inevitable there's some ranting we've done and that's fine. Yeah. But I didn't want this to turn into you know.

an extreme political rant about what's going on right now and all these different things and but I will say that

Since I started reading this book last month, I have already recommended it to five people. Like that I personally know, like, oh my God, you've gotta go read this.

And two have already picked it up. And are and they've come back to me and they're like, Oh my God, you're just yeah. They they're like, You're so right so And people who aren't even as, you know, far left as my politics are saying, you know, saying that and reading it.

You know, that makes me that makes me feel a little bit better, like, okay, it's not just me over here. Like Right. Someone who's a little bit more central, you know.

Yeah that is good to hear'cause I definitely am largely surrounded by people Kookie as I Right.

Yeah, that's so I I would say that's a good gauge as far as the book goes. Yeah. There's something in it for anybody that lives in America and pays attention to politics at all, no matter which

you know, which strand you uh generally tug on. There's uh a pretty good representation of The way politics have been and the way they could be.

Okay. And at that we'll end our discussion of uh d it can't happen here. Yay! We'll be back with something much more bright and sh

So yeah, so next month I'm excited about this one because this this'll be a nice reading break for me. Um, which I've already read a third of the book. But

It is both the movie and book of my friend Dahmer. So nice that's a cheerful subject. Serial killers uh they've got a lower body count than poly.

Uh yeah. Uh but yeah. Uh we will definitely talk more about that, but I'm super stoked that you are down to do this.

Yeah, and I'm excited about that one because actually um I had seen excerpts from the book and for like different points, but I never picked it up until you suggested it.

And I had I've actually I saw the film um in the theater a few months ago and actually I'm excited to rewatch it, so Yeah. Spoiler. Spoiler, enjoyed the movie.

Spoiler alert yes. Not to bury the lead.

Yeah, not to bury the liate, exactly. But it's it definitely uh gave me a lot less uh it got me a lot less depressed and anxious than

than uh reading this one. Yeah. That's why it's funny to say we're gonna do something more uplifting next time. We're gonna talk about a serial killer. Life affirming.

What's wrong with us? Uh we'll find out. Although I'm a huge true crime fanatic, so Yeah. And you know, this this all happened

About an hour and a half north of where I live right now. And we'll get into more about it in the sort. But yeah, Jeffrey Dahmer's from Ohio.

Yep. So is the guy that made the comic book. So Okay.

Well is there anything else you would like to say before we head out? I would say thanks.

for giving me a shot at this and I understand if you don't call me back no um to everybody that's listening, I will get more acclimated to uh

I'm getting better every day, don't worry about it. If you didn't like me this much this time, uh

I'm not trying to replace now. I'm not trying to replace your David I love that speech you gave on the last episode where I'm not trying to replace David. Like the whole stepfather speech. Yeah. Yeah. Um

But no, this this was a blast. Uh you can f come find us on uh our face look look up look up the Facebook group, find us on Twitter.

Um is it V D Clinic Pod on Twitter?

look up VD Clinic podcast in groups on Facebook and you'll find us.

We're in uh the Legion Podcasts Network.

If you feel like more politics and sometimes even more Vanessa, come check out the Psycho Semantic podcast. Um, look that up on Facebook. That's pretty active group two.

Also on Legion Podcasts Network. I was gonna say, yeah.

Yeah, but no, I I I'm gonna go do more uplifting things today and I hope you all do the same.

Yeah. And and Daeron, thank you so much.

Of course. Wonderful to have you. Thank you. Thank you for uh for joining me.

I uh like I said, I'm looking forward to this. This we this was fun. Even for a bleak to use the word today, a bleak topic is this.

Um yeah. I think we had some fun with it. Yeah, we you gotta laugh at if at the fascists or they were

Right. Yeah. Okay. They're like Bogarts that way. Yeah. Or Bogarts or however you say it. Humphrey Bogarts.

Okay. Say goodbye, Daeron. Bye, Daeron. Sorry. Bye.

Thank you for listening to another episode of the VD Clinic.

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